Which type of oscilloscope

[Peter-e]

Hello all, Im just getting started in electronic, mainly pic stuff.
I want to build things like ultrasonic range finders etc for small robots.
I would like to buy an oscillosope to help debug and to learn more but I would like some advice about what to buy, I have been thiking of buying a  (Philips PM3082
2+2 Channel, 100MHZ, Delay TB etc, Autoset ) what do you think? 

[FriskyFerret]

The Philips PM3082 is a good analog scope but a digital scope may be better suited for your intended purpose. The Tektronix 2430A is a good basic digital scope available at very reasonable prices used.

This may not be exactly the best model for you but is certainly would make a good starter scope and the price is right.

Here is the full catalog spec sheet:
http://mihd.net/rytv8p
or
http://rapidshare.com/files/85297476/Tektronix_2430A_Oscilloscope_Catalog_Sheet.pdf.html

[mylogin]

digital scope is much better for debugging non repeat type of signals.  such as ultra-sound. and other digital ckt.  deep waveform recording memory is a big help for slow signal events.      The old Tek,HP, Philips analog is good but not very easy to use in this modern day digital/mixed signal world, since it is difficult to trigger and capture the right place you are looking for.    If you get an digital scope with deep memory(such as 1M) you basically don't need the logic analyzer in most of the case.  look for 1G sample/sec real time sampling (not the equivalent sampling) and 1M deep memory if possible.

The new digital scopes come with frequency counter and FFT for spectrum display too.

[Wragie]

100mhz is a bit slow when you are dealing with mcu's and trying to debug.

Even a analog scope if it is fast enough will make life easy when you need
a scope. Capture is nice but not always needed.

Lots of scope options to suggest if we knew what your budget range was.

W

[FriskyFerret]

The new digital scopes come with frequency counter and FFT for spectrum display too.

Lets get practical, here. A scope with those features can cost the price of a new car. He's a beginner. Wake up and smell the coffee, mylogin, you're dreaming. But, then again, maybe Peter-e is the son of a Saudi prince and hunts with falcons for fun after school.

Is you daddy filthy rich, Peter-e?

[ashu.spect]

well it depends on what kind off aplication u r lookin to use ur scope

if u r goin to use it to analise Analogue modulation and noise analysis on analogue signals then Agilent MSO is the way to go
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=1000002501:epsg:pgr&nid=-35165.0.00&id=1000002501:epsg:pgr

but if u lookin @ Digital analysis jobs like Digital Bus signal analysis I2C protocaol analysis then Tecktronics MSO is the way to go

Ashu

[Peter-e]

Thanks for the replies, as friskyFerret say I am a beginner and a poor one at that, I was thinking of spending 200-250 pounds £.

[FriskyFerret]

Peter-e, please don't say 'Thank You' in your posts. Its against forum rules. Use the Thank You button in the upper-right corner of the post that was helpful to you. Its quick, easy and doesn't clutter up the forum with posts that basically contain no information.

[leonardoaraujo.santos]

Hi peter I've worked with an ultrasonic range meter project... If you want I can post on forum it's schematics and sources (With CCS PIC)

Talking about the osciloscope... Please man buy a Digital one...

[Faros]

At 250 £ you can check at eBay, at this price tag you will find some satisfactory scopes
Choose a supplier near to your location to avoid overcharged shipping cost.

Check this link
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=oscilloscope&category0=

I really hope that you will find a good scope for the job.

@ FriskyFerret
Saudi prince’s sons are not hunting by falcons after school nowadays; as a matter of fact they hardly go to superior quality school after gulf war, the US have had all their money …

Regards;

[FriskyFerret]

Saudi prince’s sons are not hunting by falcons after school nowadays; as a matter of fact they hardly go to superior quality school after gulf war, the US have had all their money…

What nonsense are you talking? What does hunting with falcons have to do with school quality?

The House of Saud clan have been skimming their huge cut off Saudi Arabia's national budget for decades. With oil prices recently hovering at $90/barrel, the family could probably buy Harvard if it had a will to. But they don't, at least until recently.

True, Saudi public schools are failing. What can you expect when the teachers are all drilling Wahhabi dogma into the kids heads to the exclusion of mathematics and reading? Nothing wrong with religion as an integral part of an education, but to the near exclusion of all else?

The Gulf war didn't help the situation, admittedly. But King Abdullah is now rolling in oil money lately and is pouring a nice chunk of it into reforming the public education system. Hopefully he is successful.

Besides, lucky Saudi princes don't go to public university, do they? They go abroad.

I do agree with you that Saudi schools are inferior, but its not because of a lack of money.

[Alienbeing]

You can get good deals on scopes on Ebay. I lucked out and bought a broken  Tektronics 100mhz scope for $50.00 US dollars. Was suppose to have been dead. Figured I but it and try to fix it. Turned out it was just missing the fuse in back. Looked and works like brand new and was recently calibrated too.

Alienbeing

[Faros]

What nonsense are you talking? What does hunting with falcons have to do with school quality?

The relation is quit obvious … I wonder how you haven’t see it ?!!, good schools are private and cost lots of money not only in Saudi Arabia but also every where in the world … if they are financially committed to such schools then they will not find enough money to bear having luxurious falcons to their kids, simple and straightforward.
 
You cannot judge a nation by just reading about it in a language other than their native, even if you read about them in their native and even if you lived their for a year or two, you will still not be able to get the true picture of their culture.

I am not that reader of world’s economy however it doesn’t take an economy specialist to know for fact that US sales of pet products other than food reached $8.5 billion US$ in 2005, do you really still want to talk about fancy Saudi falcons and buying Harvard?!!!.

Sonsivri is not the right place for such discussion, at least it is against forum rules, It just didn’t look right to make fun of a nation that you don’t belong to.
B.T.W.: I am not Saudi myself … I just didn’t like the idea.

[ktl]

Philips/Fluke PM3082 series is good.
highly recommanded
I'm using PM3084 .. 

there is a offical manual download site
http://us.fluke.com/usen/support/manuals/default.htm?prodcategory=OBS

[FriskyFerret]

US sales of pet products other than food reached $8.5 billion US$ in 2005,

With a population of 300 million, that equals $28.33 per person per year. Considering a per capita income of $25,036, this amounts to 0.1% of per capita income. Not exactly extravagant by the developed world's standards. My ultimate point being that different conclusions can be supported by the same facts if they're just presented in different ways.

Saudi prince buys $310m Airbus for "Flying Palace"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/nov/12/theairlineindustry



Yep, sounds like times are tough in Saudi Arabia.

Seems you want to see Saudi Arabia as a victim of the US. There are plenty of reasons to loathe the US right now, impoverishing Saudi Arabia is not one of them.

Sonsivri is not the right place for such discussion,

Strange, I don't see 'Moderator' next to your user name. A quick, impromptu, somewhat interesting digression probably isn't going to irk the moderators as long as it doesn't continue. Especially after the recent barrage of newbies posting Thank You's as fast as they can hit the Reply button.

Philips/Fluke PM3082 series is good. Highly recommanded.

ktl, get with the program, thats still an analog scope.

The digital Tektronix scope I posted an image of above has recently sold in good working condition, calibrated, for $275 - $375 USD (140 - 190 GBP) on eBay.

Manufacturer List Price: $8,395 USD in late 2000. That makes it 7 years out of date. Can't beat that deal for a good solid digital scope.

[mylogin]

A good digital scope does not have to be expensive, especially new ones from China. Event Agilent (HP) OEM low end digital scope from one of the Chinese scope manufacture.  Personally I own at least 10 scopes from the past years. analog or digtals and the most usefull scope is digital scope.  unless you want to measure the fast edge of digital signals or clock at 50MHz or above. you really does not need a very high bandwidth scope.  If you are working on analog ckt or MCU type of applications most of the signal will be in 10MHz-20MHz range or lower.  you should be worry about how to capture the slow signal events that you really want to see.   For ultrasound applications it is in the KHz region,  and most of then are slow asynchronous events. you want to record the transmit and reflection signals to see the actual events. a deep memory of digital scope is a really good tool.   most of the interface signals in MCU such as I2C, RS232, USB...etc. are asynchronous events, it is difficult to capture with analog scopes,  high bandwidth scope with short memory will not help at all  since you can not capture it all.  a good analog storage scope is a good help but they are expensive, and not easy to maintain also not able to zoom like digital scope.  Go to Ebay search "digital oscilloscope"  you will find several NEW digital scope from China. and they are less than US$1k for 100MHz version,  US$300-$600 is also available for 25MHz-60MHz version.   It comes with FFT spectrum analysis free too.      My experience with cheap used scope is they are very expensive to repair if the one you bought has problems.  if you can return it, the shipping cost is high.  I had to fix several cheap used (HP, Tek) scope myself which I purchased from internet. 

[FriskyFerret]

Event Agilent (HP) OEM low end digital scope from one of the Chinese scope manufacture.

Another good reason not to buy an HP scope.

[mylogin]

my experience with HP scope is they are good quality scope. no problem at all.  if you take a look at any electronics devices on the market now. most of them are made in CHINA now.  IBM, HP, DELL, APPLE, TOSHIBA, SONY, ...etc.,  this is the trend and it is the only way to reduce the manufacturing cost.  after a while it will moved to other countries with lower labor cost such as Vienam.  the key point is tight quality control, good service and reputation.  Years ago most of the Japaness car is made in JAPAN. but they are made in USA now. they have the same good quality.  and the APPLE iPOD, iPHONE,  motorola cell phones are  also made in CHINA.  and everybody is crazy of it.   This should be no issue at all if you are buying from a good reputation company.     

In the web, there are several discussions on the new low end Tek scope and HP scopes,  they only way Tek can defend them self now  is to accuse the HP low end scope is OEM from CHINA.  they just can not compete if they only live in the old days.  You will find that eventually they will have to do the same way too.

I own several Tek scope and they are good too. but very expensive.  Especially the new digital one.  The  scope I use  most of time now  is the HP 54645 MSO scope.  (100MHz, 200MSa/s) a 10 years old pal.  Most  my other scopes are sitting there collecting  dust.   

[FriskyFerret]

This idea of inevitability that all manufacturing will be sourced from China or other under developed country is flawed. Its simply short-sighted. By buying from China you run up your country's trade imbalance and take jobs away from your own people. Eventually this leads to a deterioration in the industrial infrastructure of one own country and a sharp decline in the standard of living of its people.

The second reason is what I call the 'Don't feed the growing monster' principle. China with its 1.3 billion people and thirst for military superiority and power will almost certainly rule the 21st century. Every consumer item manufactured in China simply increases their cash reserves and add to their industrial capability. This industrial base along with cash reserves could be converted to an unstoppable war machine commanding global dominance. If you think the US is bad, wait till you get a load of China.

Basically, I view buying a cheap Chinese scope over a domestically manufactured model like nicking my own throat with a razor blade. Enough nicks and I'll bleed to death. So go ahead, save a few bucks, talk yourself into believing its the smart decision.

[Faros]

@FriskyFerret

Sonsivri is not the right place for such discussion; at least it is against forum rules,

You did a snap cutting half of my sentence before the comma and left the rest of it just to prove your counterfeit point. I don’t need to be a moderator to respect forum rules or to direct others to, If you check my registration date at Sonsivri you will find that it goes back to 2005, way before Sonsivri members are counted using 4 digits, by that good times we were close and intimate, this forum continued by members how tried to respect rules other than those how don’t. A simple look will tell you that almost half of serious members time is wasted by others how don’t even read those rules and also those how cannot read them, if there are truly some serious "keenly posting members" left.

With a population of 300 million, that equals $28.33 per person per year. Considering a per capita income of $25,036, this amounts to 0.1% of per capita income. Not exactly extravagant by the developed world's standards. My ultimate point being that different conclusions can be supported by the same facts if they're just presented in different ways.

You drained your self in math to prove that 0.1% of the capital income is acceptable to be spent on pets, if you just would have read my words right, it says “other than food” not the total yearly amount spent on pets. Interested in knowing the total amount? … Read this:
     
“Americans now spend $41 billion a year on their pets—more than the gross domestic product of all but 64 countries in the world.” (Businessweek magazine)

If in your opinion this figure is reasonable, it is not so by the Americans financial analysts, read the full article here:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_32/b4045001.htm

About the prince that you referred to; his name is “Al-Walid bin Talal”; He is ranked by Forbes as the 13th richest person in the world. He has been nicknamed by Time magazine as the Arabian Warren Buffett, facts are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Alwaleed

He is PhD holder who founded his business “Kingdom Holding Company” in 1980 , Kingdom Holding Company Reports Net Income SR 1.2 billion for the Year 2007 – a 25% increase over last year.


Kingdom Holding Company building

More info:
http://www.kingdom.com.sa/default.asp?lang=en

If he is that successful by your master's measures (US financials); I believe he knows what he is doing by buying an Airbus with his earned money, don’t you agree? ..Or should he buy only what you might think that it is good for him?

Please I will consider this post as an end of useless discussion, (forum rules again) …
Kindly don’t post a photo of a fancy yacht with orientation to another prince … save my time and yours as well in in a more constructive conversions.

B.T.W. while I was typing this reply I found that you have posted reply about China economy and nicking your own throat with a razor blade… this conversion is great  .. Continue …   


Faros.

[FriskyFerret]

That's enough off-topic debate in this thread. We've both had our say. Time to move it to the General forum if its to continue.

[mylogin]

Basically, I view buying a cheap Chinese scope over a domestically manufactured model like nicking my own throat with a razor blade. Enough nicks and I'll bleed to death. So go ahead, save a few bucks, talk yourself into believing its the smart decision.

=============================================

Most of the People do not understand the real inside story of the world trading and modern day business operations.  They only  listen to what news paper says without looking into what is really happened in the modern world. 

 If you open the scope, cell phone, or any products  made in CHINA. or other third world country,   most of the   IC chips inside is from US company (TI DSP, Motorola, NS, ADI, linear tech, ATMEL, INTEL,AMD), Japaness company( SONY, Fujitsu, NEC,) and  Korean (Samsung), Germany(Siemens)... and they are imported to CHINA.  in fact, 80-90% of the IC used in CHINA made products are imported.      Most of the cost and profit of the product are in the critical components too.   The average profit for the manufacture in CHINA is less than 10% of the total cost.  and the Profit margin of the IC chip is at least 45%-50% which goes to the chip manufactures outside the CHINA.( mainly USA, JAPAN)   If you look at the financial report of the 2007 USA company, most of the profitable company such as IBM, Ge,... making most of the money from oversea country.    If you look again at what the big USA company is doing in CHINA, such as  IBM, Intel, Motorola, Microsoft, ... etc., each of them  have more than 10 thousand engineer in their CHINA research lab doing the engineering work for their USA boss.  with less than 1/4 salary pay.  (comparing to their USA employee).      This reduce the overhead/cost of the company and is a big contribution to the company profit.  They also laying a ground   in the competition of huge CHINA local market.  Look at the modern machine used in CHINA factory, they are all made in USA, JAPAN, EUROPE, and Taiwan.  even the modern BUS running on the highway of CHINA is made by Hunydai of KOREA, VOLVO and Mercedi Benz and  they all make a lot of money there. 

We have difficult time on how we label our products in the company I worked before.  The design is done  in USA, the PCB assembly is done in CHINA and PCB is made in CHINA, the bare PCB material is from Taiwan, or Japan, and the chemicals used to make the PCB is from Europe or Japan, the IC is from USA company but made in Taiwan Fab. (TSMC), the raw silicon wafer used in Taiwan fab  is from JAPAN or Europe. the chip testing is done in Korea or Malaysia, the final product testing is done in USA, the paper box used for the packaging is from some where in the other side of world. and the paper material  is from CANADA.  Our customer is in Europe.  on-line support is in INDIA and we need to pay  royalty to someone in Europe to use one of their patent.  After all of this we have a difficult time to mark it where it is made.  But the bottom line is  if we can  make a profit, we will do it. if not, just forget all of this,  and everyone in the chain lost their profit!!!   this is the modern world of business.     

So forget all the politics, focus on the product  itself and ask if it will fit your needs.   Why pay more if you can get a good product with lower cost.




 
 

[armandiaz]

I bought on Ebay a Tektronics TDS 340A for 600 euro. That was one of my best purchased I have ever made.

[hugo]

You might get lucky on ebay.

[FrankQu]

Tektronix's is good