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Author Topic: [REQUEST] - Swimming pool water ionizer schematics.  (Read 2314 times)
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Sun_rise_pt
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« on: June 04, 2013, 10:40:13 10:40 »

Any body have to share?
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LithiumOverdosE
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 11:56:52 11:56 »

Try looking for "water ozonizer" or just "ozonizer". You can find plenty of schematics online and when you make ozone generator just pump that through water.
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Sun_rise_pt
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 11:22:34 11:22 »

Really I need a ionizer. The system uses  electrolise for Cu and Ag ion dispersion on water.

Like this: http://www.europoolshop.com/contents/en-uk/d33.html
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LithiumOverdosE
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2013, 03:41:23 15:41 »

If you're thinking about producing Ag and Cu ions (like for example in ionic silver) forget it. If distilled (or at least demineralised) water is not used you will just end up with a bunch of various silver and copper salts and with no beneficial bioactive effect whatsoever.
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Sun_rise_pt
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2013, 04:48:29 16:48 »

Here (Portugal) many people use this equipment in the pools.

It seems that they bring benefits in water quality, reducing considerably the algae proliferation. Also avoid the use ( or reduce)   chlorine salts.

I would like to build a device electrolyser and thus be able to compare these same conditions. A tank or using the system and the second tank is no...


A portuguese site with a english article:

http://www.lenntech.com.pt/processos/desinfeccao/copper-silver-ionization.htm
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LithiumOverdosE
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2013, 08:32:24 20:32 »

I've participated in professional lab testing a few years back at the biotechnological institute. Silver ions very easily tend to from salts with most naturally dissolved elements in the water. Also if concentration is too high it tends to agglomerate rather easily and abruptly easily. In both cases what is left is virtually useless for any kind of disinfection.

The fact that lot of people buy such system speaks a lot about PR but from chemistry stand point it's pure bullshit. Pretty much same thing with "silver ion showers" like Silverex. If you manage to find original certificates (hard but its doable) you will find that concentration of Ag ions in such water is < 3 ppm which is also virtually useless. But people do buy that. They also buy "silver" aftershaves (bullshit) and silver shaving gels (bullshit). Anything with less than 15 ppm of primarily Ag ionic content is pretty much useless or at best perform very poorly.

As for Cu it's probably mostly because of amoebas. In reality you can simply take copper mash and run water through it. It will pretty much kill most of amoebas. BTW - take one thin copper wire of a few centimetres and put in the pitch of water. Within an hour you can be certain that most of amoebas will be dead. No real need to produce copper ions (in reality most likely copper salts).

Also, ozonating water will be MUCH more efficient if you're into disinfection. Also, there aren't any nano particles to be released in the drain (growing problem in the West).

That being said you're free to try whatever makes you happy. ;-)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 08:36:27 20:36 by LithiumOverdosE » Logged
Vineyards
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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2013, 09:52:18 09:52 »

I agree with you Lithium. As a result of continued use they also change the color of the water significantly. In practical use, they use flocculants to get rid of Ag and Cu salts which cause them to clump together for easy removal. The waste is categorized as heavy metal discharge and can be problematic to get rid of depending on your regional environmental discharge rules. There are alternatives but the main method for swimming pool disinfection has been the same over the decades: chlorine.

Chlorine is a member of the halogen group and not only is it cheaper than most other disinfectants (bromine, iodine, H2O2, biguanid etc.) but it is also easier to use. It has been in use for decades, its concentration in water is easy to measure galvanically. The most effective form of chlorine as a disinfectant is ClO2 which is a gas. It is a clean killer. It does its job extremely effectively and leaves no residuals. However it is risky to apply since it is very poisonous.

One alternative would be building a chlorinator. You will need stuff like titanium electrodes, and an electronic means to control reaction speed. You add salt to water bringing the NaCl concentration to 2500-6000ppm.

Actually, I am also thinking of building a unit like that. I am just a bit lazy these days but you can be sure this Cu Ag business is not worth spending time on.

There are two types of disinfectants: those having potential and instant disinfectants. In the case of ozone and UV there is no potential. They just kill a percentage of the pathogens present in the pool water and they continue to grow naturally the moment you stop using them. Since pathogens keep coming in, it is nothing but a is losing war. In other words, you can't rely on them alone. You can use them to support the action of the chemicals (like chlorine). There will always be pathogens in water at any given time since there is nothing to stop them once they are in water. Halogens (or oxidizers) on the other hand provide a disinfection potential that works for the entire mass of the water body.

An alternative disinfectant which is gaining popularity is H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide). It is a powerful oxidizer. The concentration level (in my country) is determined as 40-80ppm. (Compare this to 1-1.5ppm for chlorine) It also needs to be supported by adding biguanid. That means vast amounts of H2O2 must be stored and H2O2 is a very active substance. Poor storage means loss of effectiveness. Let's say where you need a 100 liter barrel for one months worth of chlorinee, you will need 4 tons of H2O2 (this is just a practical calculation that does not take into account the active ingredient concentrations). It is not easy to measure automatically (there are optical titration methods that involve permanganate, serium etc.) However, because of its obvious advantages it is slowly establishing itself as a chlorine alternative.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 06:03:16 18:03 by Vineyards » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2013, 10:50:59 22:50 »

What do you gentlemen think of colloidal silver for consumption as an antibiotic or therapeutic agent to boost the immune system? I've read claims at both ends of the spectrum (most wonderful thing ever invented vs. completely worthless) which means the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I've seen advertisements for "your very own silver colloid generator" at extremely high prices. I assume they use a silver anode and salt water. I don't know what the cathode material would be. Do you have any idea what the therapeutic level of silver would be?  I read the definition of "colloid" and it seems that then the silver would need something to bind to, to remain in suspension?

LithiumOverdosE>>"As for Cu it's probably mostly because of amoebas. In reality you can simply take copper mash and run water through it. It will pretty much kill most of amoebas. BTW - take one thin copper wire of a few centimetres and put in the pitch of water. Within an hour you can be certain that most of amoebas will be dead. No real need to produce copper ions (in reality most likely copper salts)."

Do you mean a copper mesh, like screen wire, will kill amoebas? Now that is interesting. I have a water well on my property, and I was going to use a Fresnel lens out of a projection TV (about 4 feet X 5 feet) to boil water for purification.

Interesting conversation! Thank you both! I'm looking forward to your comments.

Hmm.... Maybe Michel Douglas should have been gargling with colloidal silver as an antiviral agent?



« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 10:57:47 22:57 by LabVIEWguru » Logged
Vineyards
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2013, 10:37:08 10:37 »

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/silver#top
Check out above link. In a nutshell, it says the FDA does not consider colloidal silver safe or effective and that it has taken legal action against a number of companies promoting related products.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 10:39:51 10:39 by Vineyards » Logged
LithiumOverdosE
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2013, 12:54:35 12:54 »

Effectiveness of silver colloids is directly related to amount of Ag ions. We tested various colloids of silver and as it turns out silver salts are basically useless and tend to accumulate in the organism. Hence any system using anything but distilled or demineralised water are useless. Also, if colloid is not perfectly transparent to normal (scattered) light it probably agglomerated (yellowish to brown colour) and it's also useless.

As for drinking Ag colloids (no matter of their ionic content) is pretty much useless because almost immediately everything turns to Ag salts in stomach (in contact with hydrochloric acid). I guess some amount could be absorbed into blood if you keep it under your tongue but that's pretty much conjecture.

In order for colloidal (ionic) silver to be effective it has to come into direct contact with the treated part of body (wounds, lacerations, infections). At least that's what we determined after lab experiments.  Wink

P.S.
As for antiviral properties keep in mind that all evidence is anecdotal.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 02:53:27 14:53 by LithiumOverdosE » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2013, 03:41:49 03:41 »

/ LithiumOverdosE: In order for colloidal (ionic) silver to be effective it has to come into direct contact with the treated part of body (wounds, lacerations, infections)./

Very interesting, indeed. I remember reading in a history text that the ancient Greeks used honey and silver (granules, I assume) to treat wounds and topical infections. I wonder if a dressing impregnated with silver or flushing an area infected with the impossible-to-kill bacterial would be effective. Of course, usually by the time people get around to treating it their arm has already fallen off.

Thank you again - very, very interesting stuff.

Did you see the bone-head on the Internet that gave himself staggering doses of silver? That comment about "tend to accumulate in the organism" was right on the money - his skin is a very pronounced blue.
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Vineyards
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2013, 10:55:55 22:55 »

Silver dihydrogen citrate is the one with the FDA approval. It is already used in some shampoos and detergents.
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LithiumOverdosE
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« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2013, 10:59:28 22:59 »

FDA has a policy of not approving a number of beneficial medicinal remedies. Also I more believe lab results I saw with my own eyes.  Grin
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