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Author Topic: Metallising holes in PCBs???  (Read 7253 times)
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Josivan
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« on: January 22, 2013, 03:40:59 15:40 »

Good evening friends.
Anyone have any ideas to make the metallization of holes in PCBs, and what materials are used in the process serm.

I await your help Embarrassed Embarrassed
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Parmin
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 04:02:44 16:02 »

You can either buy the paste compound and bake it in,
or use hollow rivets
or simply solder in a fine wire.

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Sideshow Bob
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2013, 04:04:01 16:04 »

Unless you are planing to setup a large scale PCB production plant. I would advice you to foreget about it. But if your interest in this topic is just academic. I may find some sources for you
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indy
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 06:32:02 18:32 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTNuTv_IQp4
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solutions
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2013, 04:23:01 04:23 »

Unless you are trying to hide something you are making (usually illegal), it's much better quality and cheaper to do a 2 layer board on a multiple project panel...$1.66 sq in ($0.0034/sq mm)
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bigtoy
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2013, 11:13:17 23:13 »

I've soldered thin wires (eg wire-wrap wire) through the board before. But now it's so cheap to get a plated-through double-sided board made (and it's so much less work) it's been a long time since I last bothered making my own vias.
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kukumar
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2013, 04:01:10 04:01 »

 good solution for this problem:

http://www.lpkf.com/products/rapid-pcb-prototyping/through-hole-plating/index.htm
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2013, 02:04:55 14:04 »

DIY pcb pth plating can be done (i did it), but it is a very messy work with unpredictable result. The problem is not only on the making the hole conductive, but more on the through hole copper plating it self - the role of plating additives and solution maintenance is very important.

The youtube video above shows a process which commercially available as "black hole pth plating", in this commercial process the carbon / graphite coating on the copper surface removed chemically not being sanded as on the video.

Want to know more? Google for: pth direct plating.

-ichan
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mare69
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2013, 03:12:49 15:12 »

I am using LPKF Pd paste. It's expensive like palladium  Shocked Grin but it works. First I make PCB with usual toner transfer method, then stick normal duct tape, drill and apply LPKF paste.I use vacuum cleaner to get paste through holes.
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Gallymimu
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2013, 09:00:12 09:00 »

Unless you are trying to hide something you are making (usually illegal), it's much better quality and cheaper to do a 2 layer board on a multiple project panel...$1.66 sq in ($0.0034/sq mm)

Cheaper solution:
http://imall.iteadstudio.com/open-pcb/pcb-prototyping/im120418001.html

10x 2 layer 5cmx5cm PCBs for $10.  The quality isn't amazing but it's plenty good enough (the boards work!)  Turn time is about 1 wk plus shipping time from china (2 wks for about $8 and 3 day for about $20)

It's really hard to justify etching your own PCBs these days.
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diaz
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2013, 02:01:10 14:01 »

I'll second the iteadstudio tip, used them a good few times never a problem. Not always the quickest, it seems if they spot a problem with the board they forget to tell you until you chase them, it's happened twice so far. For the money it's amazing. They flagged one of my boards as a footprint had a solder mask missing on one pad, (think that's right, my memory fails me), still very well spotted I thought.

Boards are very nice quality I would say, perfect for most hobby stuff. Cheaper than making homebrew single sided boards in some cases, never mind through hole plating them yourself !
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 07:22:38 19:22 by diaz » Logged
Gallymimu
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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2013, 02:16:44 14:16 »

I'll second the iteadstudio tip, used them a good few times never a problem. Not always the quickest, it seems if they spot a problem with the board they forget to tell you until you chase them, it's happened twice so far. For the money it's amazing. They flagged one of my boards as a footprint had a solder mask missing on one pad, (think that's right, my memory fails me), still very well spotted I thought.

Boards are very nice quality I would say, perfect for most hobby stuff. Cheaper than making homebrew single sided boards in some cases.

I've also had an issue with them messing up the silk screen on one board out of about 5 orders from them so far.  They said they'd remake it and I never got the replacements.  I'll still use them for sure though!
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diaz
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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 02:42:00 14:42 »

They didn't mess my solder mask up, it was me, they spotted the mistake in my case and saved me the error. Swings and roundabouts I guess !
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 05:50:20 17:50 by diaz » Logged
solutions
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« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2013, 01:38:53 01:38 »

Cheaper solution:
http://imall.iteadstudio.com/open-pcb/pcb-prototyping/im120418001.html

10x 2 layer 5cmx5cm PCBs for $10.  The quality isn't amazing but it's plenty good enough (the boards work!)  Turn time is about 1 wk plus shipping time from china (2 wks for about $8 and 3 day for about $20)

It's really hard to justify etching your own PCBs these days.

Not cheaper, my friend. $3/board (not open sourced...the fact they mention open sourced and discount it says they look at your designs and WANT THEM for somebody to manufacture, not for you, but against you)at 5x5cm plus shipping. You really think that they will honor your IP sharing refusal...in CHINA?

Shipping is included in my price, as is silkscreen, solder mask, and gold plated finish on exposed pads on both sides, electrically tested. 5x5cm is. Technology is 6/6 vs 8/8 track/space widths.

Yeah, you can get cheap crap, and you can send your boards to people who will steal your design. You can spend two weeks of your time debugging a board that simply has an open via. You can spend weeks waiting for a screwup to get fixed, a screwup based on what's posted here being very likely vs improbable. I don't take those risks, and even an hour of my time is not worth the money...and I am not working these days.

Up to you what you do, of course.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 02:27:04 02:27 by solutions » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2013, 09:39:07 09:39 »

Could you clarify your solution ?

Thanks
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Ichan
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« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 11:18:41 11:18 »

These days 2 layer pcb prototype from china is about $80 per panel 30x40cm (or even more), it is about $0.00067/mm2 - make it double for shipping. It is about 2 weeks waiting time, diy pcb is still required in rush time. I doubt they really do electrical (flying probe) testing for single panel proto, it is a costly process.

I am using LPKF Pd paste. It's expensive like palladium  Shocked Grin but it works. First I make PCB with usual toner transfer method, then stick normal duct tape, drill and apply LPKF paste.I use vacuum cleaner to get paste through holes.

Interesting, is it solderable?

-ichan.
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mare69
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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 01:51:06 13:51 »

After curing it is.
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Gallymimu
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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 09:15:22 21:15 »

Not cheaper, my friend. $3/board (not open sourced...the fact they mention open sourced and discount it says they look at your designs and WANT THEM for somebody to manufacture, not for you, but against you)at 5x5cm plus shipping. You really think that they will honor your IP sharing refusal...in CHINA?

Shipping is included in my price, as is silkscreen, solder mask, and gold plated finish on exposed pads on both sides, electrically tested. 5x5cm is. Technology is 6/6 vs 8/8 track/space widths.

Yeah, you can get cheap crap, and you can send your boards to people who will steal your design. You can spend two weeks of your time debugging a board that simply has an open via. You can spend weeks waiting for a screwup to get fixed, a screwup based on what's posted here being very likely vs improbable. I don't take those risks, and even an hour of my time is not worth the money...and I am not working these days.

Up to you what you do, of course.

don't be such an ass. and stop being wrong it's annoying.

I've tried to teach you how to be polite and useful on the forums and sadly it hasn't stuck too well.  So I apologize for being short, but polite logic hasn't helped you improve and be a stronger contributor to the forums.  Don't get me wrong, with over a thousand posts, you've probably helped some people, we just need to get you to be less of an ass and to be focused on helping rather than shooting people down (with incorrect assumptions, and occasionally bad technical advise).

You don't give a link, so you aren't helping anyone, just thread crapping and acting superior (I have some sympathy though, it must suck to be unemployed with nothing useful to do).

open source is an option, not a requirement with itead.  No PCB manf is going to stay in business stealing PCB designs, and frankly who'd want to, they are worthless without a product, a BOM and a market, so your ripping on it is a little juvenile and speaks to lack of business knowledge/experience.

you said $1.66/sqin at some undisclosed fab, big help guy.  I said $1ea for a 5cm X 5cm board (qty 10 brds) plus $20 for FAST shipping, regular shipping runs $8. So here comes the big PhD math!!!  5cm sq is about 4sqin, so you are quoting over $6 ($1.66 X 4) per board vs my $2 or $3 per board.  Yeah...

Glad your time is valuable and that you spend it here "helping".

Anyway, you achieved your goal in pissing me off so congrats, I'm embarrassed.  So please share the domestic PCB supplier that's super cheap.  I usually use advanced circuits or sierraprotoexpress for low cost domestic boards, all the same specs you quoted but no gold, so your source would be awesome.

oooohhh, I can't wait for the next round of Solutions tellin' me WHAT's WHAT's again in that cute way you always do!  I keep hoping you'll be right and I'll learn something from you.  Hasn't happened yet but I'll keep reading as I am not one to give up on you my good friend!

You might want to change your forum name to something more appropriate, the monkey is cool though. I'd keep that.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 10:02:46 22:02 by Gallymimu » Logged
Parmin
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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2013, 04:18:46 16:18 »

LOL.. so aggresive, and I thought being a grouch is my job.
Whats eating you?

Anyhow, back on topic, I never use these mob before (itead) are they any good?
How accurate are their drilling holes and masking? and are their delivery timely?
Pretty good price.
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Gallymimu
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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2013, 05:40:10 17:40 »

LOL.. so aggresive, and I thought being a grouch is my job.
Whats eating you?

Anyhow, back on topic, I never use these mob before (itead) are they any good?
How accurate are their drilling holes and masking? and are their delivery timely?
Pretty good price.

Sorry, like I said, had a short fuse and constantly feel like I'm battling Solution's lack of tact, bad advice and treating other people's questions like they are dumb approach so I kinda snapped Smiley  I know I should work harder to get along.

Anyway, I think itead is great for protos.  I've done 4 sets of 2 layers with them.  Still need to try a 4 layer.  So far they've turned the boards and shipped in 1 week. With DHL they come a couple days later.  Silk and mask are not as clean or even as domestic. Drills and lines look fine so far.

Tell ya what, to make up for my outburst I'll take some pics and post them.

Posted on: January 30, 2013, 12:27:40 00:27 - Automerged

Itead board examples
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 05:52:05 17:52 by Gallymimu » Logged
solutions
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« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2013, 06:14:08 18:14 »

I didn't threadjack as you are, and continue to.

There is an entire topic on board fabs...that topic should have been linked early on into that topic by the person starting a pissing contest over what is a cheaper fab service, and posting the useful information of COST in that thread instead of fragmenting board fab recommendations over hell's half acre.

I didn't give a link because it was discussed to death over there and the links are there. For someone interested in cost, there's a thread for it. For someone interested in doing vias, this is it. I was merely making the point of...DON'T BOTHER, even at my price points.

My post was illustrative of "not worth it" to do your own vias, vs having searched the entire planet for the cheapest, tawdry fab in a vias topic before I posted. For some reason, that seemed to threaten your throne (which has a flush lever, apparently), or do you have friends in China who steal IP for a living and feel threatened that they may get cut out of getting free designs to commercialize on someone else's sweat?

And don't get me started on pouring heavy metals down the drain or dumping them into a landfill as some homebrew methods will do. Go down to the HAZMAT place and see how much it costs you to dispose of your leftovers in any via process (other than the one where it was suggested to use wire stubs)....PROPERLY. It costs so much that "bah, it's not much, nobody will know...."<pour>

If you are not going to talk about vias here, take it to the other thread, like you should be, and put an end to the incessant threadjacking. You're water off a duck's back to me, so don't waste your breath. If I'm not being taught by you, I'm lacking tact and giving bad advice....meh...your opinion...like I care

Anyway, back on topic.

Summarizing what I initially said, supported by subsequent posts: chemicals and materials, and their proper disposal, will cost you more than fabbing a board. A LOT more than even I initially said. The quality will cost you time you wish you didn't spend when you could be doing something else, even if it's just watching Bugs Bunny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUsJXwE73QU
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 07:02:04 19:02 by solutions » Logged
bbarney
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« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2013, 04:20:28 16:20 »

Stick to the topic boys or I'll let Pickit out of his cage
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« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2013, 06:38:48 18:38 »

Here's a few ways to do it:

http://diypcbvias.com/  using copper foil

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267112 I'm not convinced this one is such a good idea but it used conductive silver ink/epoxy

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/01/19/diy-electro-chemicly-plated-vias-for-homede-pcbs/  This one is a chemically plated DIY method.
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« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2013, 11:39:52 23:39 »

Well now...   the solution is back to what I suggested up there on post #2,

Bake a compound in
or
Use some rivet
or
simply solder in some wire.

You guys seems to love making things more difficult  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2013, 12:43:14 12:43 »

Bake a compound in

Common problem with this technique is bonding fails on the hole rim..

After curing it is.

..but if it is solderable then it can be strengthen with it.

Manufactured pcb's is all over around me everyday, but diy one still needed for next morning pils presentation.

-ichan
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 08:08:33 20:08 »

I do it by hand with pieces of wire soldered. I guess is the cheapest way.
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2013, 03:26:37 15:26 »

I have tried all different methods over the past 25 years and have always come back to one of two different ways.
1 - Using a professional PCB manufacturing company to fab the boards or,
2 - Making them at home with Kinsten positive photoresist PCB's, drilling the vias by hand using a Dremel mounted in a stand and then simply knitting a single piece of wirewrap wire back and forth through the vias, and finally hand soldering the connections before trimming the remaining knitted wire off to reveal individual vias. Has always worked well for me, and a lot less work than rivets or extra chemicals that sometimes work, sometimes doesn't.

Posted on: February 09, 2013, 10:21:44 22:21 - Automerged

And using through hole components to make the connection on both sides of the board by soldering the pins on both sides to make the connection wherever possible. Looks really neat and tidy this way too and nobody really knows it's not a plated through hole. Must say it's not so easy to do this with SMD's...
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2013, 06:50:22 18:50 »

I used also the pin of some through hole component, then cut it very short and even tap it with a small hammer to be as low as possible, but it is not so nice. Even though it is very effective even for high currents.
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2013, 05:23:57 17:23 »

I guess a lot of methods are a compromise on quality, effort and cost. I have seen some great jobs performed in creating metallised holes with chemical deposition but as a hobbiest the biggest problem for me is the ongoing cost of chemicals, as they all have a relatively short shelf life.
I checked out some pricing on 2 Layer PCB's (small quantities) out of china as suggested by Gallymimu and it's not worth my time and money to make them at home. bigtoy also come to the same conclusion on this.
Well at least that's my opinion on the matter.
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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2013, 08:06:57 08:06 »

This just showed up on hackaday.com and seems pretty relevant:

http://hackaday.com/2013/02/19/via-press-crushes-copper-to-make-a-mechanical-connection/
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« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2013, 04:29:02 16:29 »

cheap, not bad idea indeed. But the problem you can't control the crush pattern.
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« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2018, 04:35:09 04:35 »

I seem to recall this was discussed to death a year or two ago here. Did you look?
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« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2018, 07:51:45 07:51 »

I seem to recall this was discussed to death a year or two ago here. Did you look?
Is this the tread you meant? http://www.sonsivri.to/forum/index.php?topic=50290.0
@Yukine Given that you are working with DIY boards. If you route your own boards and use through hole compoents. You can use the compents leg as via. This works good for components like resistors, most ceramic capacitors, tantalum capacitors, and through hole ICs. Also works on DIL sockets of this type. These sockets cost somewhat more but not that much.
Edit: Just to sure. I did not meant using cut of components leg as via (although that also works) But in the design process changing from top to bottom layer at sutiable components legs as often as possible. Instead of creating a via
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« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2018, 11:06:02 11:06 »

Sometimes it is possible use PCB rivets.

http://fab.cba.mit.edu/classes/863.16/doc/tutorials/PCB_Rivets/
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« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2018, 04:34:38 04:34 »

So, Sideshow Bob was gracious enough to spend his TIME to help you out by finding the vias topic and it appears you didn't even read it.

Why?
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« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2018, 12:23:48 12:23 »

Jan Mrázek has a tutorial on how to make a homemade real copper electroplating to get through hole plating on vias. Its methodology seems very interesting for me and I believe can help you:

https://blog.honzamrazek.cz/2017/10/diy-through-hole-plating-of-pcbs/
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« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2018, 02:42:44 14:42 »

So, Sideshow Bob was gracious enough to spend his TIME to help you out by finding the vias topic and it appears you didn't even read it.

Why?

the flashing super annoying light bulb might have sapped his mental strength.
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« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2018, 06:50:29 06:50 »

The rivets work well, but the tooling is expensive.  Reichelt is the cheapest for the proper kit (mechanical press, tooling and rivets).  I am using the 0.6mm internal diameter rivets. 
The lower part of the tooling has a spring loaded pin while the top part has a fixed pin. 
The fixed pin on the tooling has bent a couple of times because I was careless when lining up the PCB, but the press works OK and the rivets work even without the fixed pin. 

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« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2018, 07:19:09 07:19 »

I tried the rivets yes they work well but I found you have to double the connections before you build the PCB as one time I spent hours trying to find out why my project t would not work it was down to one of the rivets not made properly
The chemical way is messy and time consuming
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« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2018, 11:28:25 11:28 »

I tried Seeed studio fusion - max 10 cm x10 cm, 2 layers, hasl, mask from 6 colors for USD$ 4.90. Delivery to Europe - roughly from USD$8 to 20, you obtain 10 pc`s boards in this price. For this price I maybe only buy material for this in Europe. I do not know if I can paste link directly, but it is easy find Seeedstudio fusion pcb.

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« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2018, 11:32:15 11:32 »

I tried the rivets yes they work well but I found you have to double the connections before you build the PCB as one time I spent hours trying to find out why my project t would not work it was down to one of the rivets not made properly
The chemical way is messy and time consuming

The best way to guarantee a good connection is to solder the rivet after forming it.  I use a silhouette portrait craft cutter to make solder stencils out of mylar sheets and then squeegy solder paste over the board.  Place an SMT pad over each through-hole (top and bottom of board) so that solder paste will cover the rivet, then use a hot air gun or reflow oven to complete the job.   
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weetit
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« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2018, 05:15:32 05:15 »

I tried Seeed studio fusion - max 10 cm x10 cm, 2 layers, hasl, mask from 6 colors for USD$ 4.90. Delivery to Europe - roughly from USD$8 to 20, you obtain 10 pc`s boards in this price. For this price I maybe only buy material for this in Europe. I do not know if I can paste link directly, but it is easy find Seeedstudio fusion pcb.



For me I use pcbway before.  Almost same price without shipping it is about 50 cent per PCB, if you look for the promotion which is 10x10cm 2 layers with screen.  It took me only 3 days to complete.  But the shipping may cost vary, for me it took 30USD everything together it is still cheap.  I think PCB is not become a lot cheaper.  We just have to google it check for one with a good reputation. 

Sometime my PCB comes faster than my part from mouser or digikey, if I order it at the same time.

I also try to connect the via manually before, it is not very good approach and not reliable.
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Wumudapy
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« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2018, 03:44:19 15:44 »

I have ordered 200x best quality pcb copper via vias through hole rivets, 5 sizes ,40pcs each

https://www.ebay.com/itm/200x-best-quality-pcb-copper-via-vias-through-hole-rivets-5-sizes-40pcs-each/223139155568?hash=item33f4214e70:g:AbgAAMXQDHpRjAbE

 US $18.93

Not arrived yet but I will see if any good.
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« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2018, 06:25:32 18:25 »

I use a few applications of silver conductive paint but it's expensive.
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« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2018, 11:15:10 23:15 »

Are we really discussing a topic from 2013 ??
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Sideshow Bob
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« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2018, 02:09:58 02:09 »

Are we really discussing a topic from 2013 ??
Nah not exactly. The question was asked again by a now muted member Yukine in Mrach 2018 in a seperate thread. However this thread ended up in pointless off topic bickering for some reason, do not remember why. End of storry the thread go nuked with Yukine. But the relevant postings on topic were moved to this thread from 2013.
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