Sonsivri
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 06, 2016, 03:06:49 15:06


Login with username, password and session length


Pages: [1] 2  All
Print
Author Topic: printing pcb's on an inkjet gets closer !!!  (Read 5111 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Old_but_Alive
V.I.P
Active Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 211

Thank You
-Given: 154
-Receive: 56


« on: January 15, 2012, 03:50:55 15:50 »

found this article.

looks very promising

http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-particle-free-silver-ink-small-high-performance.html


Logged
DarkClover
Active Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 170

Thank You
-Given: 36
-Receive: 60


Still alive...


« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 05:25:57 17:25 »

Past year I tried to print the layout directly on a board. I rebuilt a simple cheap laserprinter with 600dpi. But the results were pretty bad on small structures.
But with this methode maybe it will become more easy to make PCB instead of the complete chemical way.
Logged

Not thinking means to believe what others say!
TRY & ERROR... the fundamental principle our existence is based on
Captain J.H
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11

Thank You
-Given: 5
-Receive: 3


« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 04:12:17 04:12 »

I had in the past with laser printers.
Was then there was a passion.
^ ^ Just now is getting orders to board manufacturers.
Logged
Old_but_Alive
V.I.P
Active Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 211

Thank You
-Given: 154
-Receive: 56


« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2012, 03:41:32 03:41 »

I found this link on how to make your own Conductive ink

http://jordanbunker.com/archives/41
Logged
Magnox
V.I.P
Active Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 208

Thank You
-Given: 775
-Receive: 238


Oink!


« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2012, 02:06:43 02:06 »

There is a viable method for 'printing' PCB's now, albeit a little expensive. Print with a solid wax printer onto flexible PCB laminate (kapton/polyimide based).
Logged
SkyChef
V.I.P
Newbie
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 21

Thank You
-Given: 14
-Receive: 4


« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2012, 10:07:59 22:07 »

I used this dry transfer method and it works very well. There are tons of tutorial notes at the site too.

http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/start_here/overview.html
Logged
Magnox
V.I.P
Active Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 208

Thank You
-Given: 775
-Receive: 238


Oink!


« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2012, 11:36:49 23:36 »

Yes, the Pulsar paper and TRF is very good - the TRF especially is the life-saver in the system. I bought a laminator - same make as their recommended one but a bigger model with variable temperature and speed. I didn't have much luck with the iron method, not for fine pitch boards anyway. With the laminator the system works very well indeed.

I used to use the UV exposure method, and have amde a lot of boards that way, but the short shelf life of presensitised laminate made me look for alternatives. I'm glad it did. The Pulsar stuff seems to get as fine as I could with UV (with care) and is much quicker.
Logged
SkyChef
V.I.P
Newbie
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 21

Thank You
-Given: 14
-Receive: 4


« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2012, 06:07:34 18:07 »

Yeah Pulsar stuff is pretty good and cheap too but it's only good for regular applications those you are not very concerned if the traces not being clean made which will become obvious when you run it through the laminating process. It will not work for RF application because traces can be deformed and having non constant width (non constant width means impedance varies along the trace). For RF applications, it's better with UV.
Logged
CocaCola
V.I.P
Senior Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 397

Thank You
-Given: 108
-Receive: 182


« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2012, 03:29:58 03:29 »

I have personally given up on making my own PC boards at home for the most part, it's simply not cost effective for me anymore...  You can jump on cheap PC board pooled runs out there and get a few boards made for cheap with a few week turn, and they are full production grade boards...

The pulsar paper works well, you can even make your own generic transfer paper if you want for pennies...  I'm not going to claim it's equal to the mass produced stuff but it will work, and once you get the knack works well...  The biggest issue is keeping the paper flat, and getting and even coat of the medium on it, but practice makes perfect...

All you need to do is get some dextrin powder (chemical or fireworks supply company), silicone waterproofing spray (for tents and camping clothes), and a foam paint roller...  Take the silicone waterproofing spray and spray a few sheets of heavier weight super bright copier paper, let dry... Take the dextrin mix with enough warm water to a thin paint like constancy, foam roll your dextrin paint onto the paper sheets (I find taping the sheets down by the corners helps hold them flat) let them dry...  Presto generic pulsar transfer paper for your laser printer, print on the dextrin coated side obviously...  In warm water the dextrin melts away and releases the paper from the toner...

The pulsar transfer foils are just hot press foils, you can purchase hot press/heat transfer rolls for hot press/tranfer foil machines for much cheaper if you shop around...

You can even make your own dextrin if you have a day to waste, it's only cooked corn starch, just spread it out on a cookie sheet and bake for many, many hours at a low temp until it's golden brown...  There are instructions and videos out there on times and temps, but refined dextrin can be purchased dirt cheap so it's really a waste IMO...

I have also found the magazine pages work better than regular printer paper if you just want to print and apply to the board, the glossy coating on them releases the toner better then regular paper...

It would be cool to see a home brew method the just print them out, but for me at least I just don't find it time or cost effective anymore...  Not to say the tinkering aspect of doing it yourself isn't fun, it certainly is... I still do etch my own every so often and once had dreams of modding a plotter to draw out the resist on the boards but when I look at all the trouble it's just so much more economical to just have them produced by the pros...
Logged
Old_but_Alive
V.I.P
Active Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 211

Thank You
-Given: 154
-Receive: 56


« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2012, 02:29:12 14:29 »

First Demonstration of Inkjet-Printed Graphene Electronics

see

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/27368/

Logged
MTong
Junior Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 91

Thank You
-Given: 65
-Receive: 170


« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 08:12:32 20:12 »

Instant Inkjet Circuits: Lab-based Inkjet Printing to Support
Rapid Prototyping of UbiComp Devices

September 2013, best paper award at UbiComp 2013

http://www.4shared.com/office/RPG-rTfw/p363-kawahara.html
Logged
solutions
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1446

Thank You
-Given: 590
-Receive: 851



« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 04:17:26 04:17 »

Best paper award for using an off-the-shelf silver conducting ink is pretty sad.

Paper substrate, silver, conductive epoxy component attach. Each and all are useless for anything other than a water cooler discussion. They could have at least tried doing it on a paper/phenolic circuit board core - not much of a shift of using an inkjet to print on paper, but enough to where it's a bit more than an elementary school kid could do.

Wake me up when you can laser ablate the copperfoil
Logged
MTong
Junior Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 91

Thank You
-Given: 65
-Receive: 170


« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 05:19:29 05:19 »

I think using off the shelf stuff and keeping prototyping cost as low as possible was the goal
Logged
solutions
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1446

Thank You
-Given: 590
-Receive: 851



« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 11:38:03 11:38 »

Not for a RESEARCH paper
Logged
bigtoy
Active Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 152

Thank You
-Given: 127
-Receive: 197


« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 06:12:18 06:12 »

Have you seen this kickstarter project? It's basically a custom inkjet printer to print silver ink onto solid substrates (not paper). It makes for a pretty interesting read (their earlier experiments using off-the-shelf printers etc).

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cartesianco/the-ex1-rapid-3d-printing-of-circuit-boards
Logged
Old_but_Alive
V.I.P
Active Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 211

Thank You
-Given: 154
-Receive: 56


« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2013, 07:38:57 19:38 »

yes, I saw it a while back, its bloody expensive.

All we really need is the conductive ink particles which slot into say a standard cartridge of an Epson inkjet printer.

much cheaper than these guys.

It will come, hopefully this year !!!!!



Posted on: December 09, 2013, 06:57:04 18:57 - Automerged

maybe this will start something

http://phys.org/news/2013-12-3m-teams-cambrios-silver-nanowire.html

Logged
solutions
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1446

Thank You
-Given: 590
-Receive: 851



« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2013, 09:59:30 21:59 »

Fine for touch screen.

Disaster for circuit traces:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisker_%28metallurgy%29
Logged
Old_but_Alive
V.I.P
Active Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 211

Thank You
-Given: 154
-Receive: 56


« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2013, 08:06:57 08:06 »

I am not very knowledgeable  on this subject but  the width is dependant on the width you lay the ink down, and I dont see how your concern of whiskering fits in here

surely  ( dont call me Shirley !!), its significant that a giant like 3M is getting involved
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 08:10:04 08:10 by Old_but_Alive » Logged
CocaCola
V.I.P
Senior Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 397

Thank You
-Given: 108
-Receive: 182


« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2013, 09:35:18 09:35 »

I dont see how your concern of whiskering fits in here

The page linked was pretty informative, but if you need more

http://www.eaton.nl/ecm/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&allowInterrupt=1&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased&noSaveAs=0&Rendition=Primary&dDocName=PCT_495135
Logged
Faros
Senior Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 253

Thank You
-Given: 125
-Receive: 178


« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2013, 01:24:12 13:24 »

Applying the RoHS has been a disaster to electronics industry. I believe that RoHS rules were to regulate using some hazardous substance other than panning them completely. the future of semiconductor manufacturing is moving towards nano technology. the use of lead in batteries for example shouldn't be compared to its usage in semiconductor chips. I just don't believe that a 10 million of 2mm x 2mm wafer could really cause a problem in 1000 years to come.       
Logged
solutions
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1446

Thank You
-Given: 590
-Receive: 851



« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2013, 10:02:57 22:02 »

I am not very knowledgeable  on this subject but  the width is dependant on the width you lay the ink down, and I dont see how your concern of whiskering fits in here

surely  ( dont call me Shirley !!), its significant that a giant like 3M is getting involved

Three words:

Toyota Gas Pedal
Logged
Old_but_Alive
V.I.P
Active Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 211

Thank You
-Given: 154
-Receive: 56


« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2013, 07:59:16 07:59 »

At the risk of another warning or possible mute, I will add this reply.

Is it me being old, but I just dont get the link between conductive inkjet printing and whiskering or Toyota Gas Pedals.

I understand whiskering happens between contacts which make/break

@solutions, cant seem to find anything on "whiskering" on the TGP


"A U.S. government probe of unintended acceleration in accidents involving Toyotas absolved the throttle-control electronics in the vehicles. It found that driver error was to blame for most of the mishaps with sticky accelerator pedals and floor mats playing a role in others. "

@pickit2 - please be parient with an old man  Sad
Logged
CocaCola
V.I.P
Senior Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 397

Thank You
-Given: 108
-Receive: 182


« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2013, 08:19:17 08:19 »

Is it me being old, but I just dont get the link between conductive inkjet printing and whiskering or Toyota Gas Pedals.

The use of silver is one of the primary causes of whiskering, and that is the primary metal used in the conductive ink you listed...  The short of it, if you print with a silver based conductive ink the potential for whiskering is very high, garbage in garbage out...  As for Toyota, yes they blamed the drivers this time, but they did in fact find whiskering and even though that might not have been what they determined was the cause this time around, the whiskering was there and could very well be to blame the next time...

As Faros has already stated this is becoming a problem already because of RoHS (aka lead free) where RoHS compliance components are ticking time bombs for failure...  Consumers are the ones that are going to pay, as high end and critical systems are usually exempt from RoHS and for good reason they know it's a failed system...
Logged
solutions
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1446

Thank You
-Given: 590
-Receive: 851



« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2013, 10:03:22 10:03 »

Edit: Sorry cocacola - I had this parked and pressed the button - seems we're in agreement

=============
Wiskering occurs in silver and tin as a result of electric fields and reasonable humidity levels from what I know.

The TGP was blamed on firmware (sort of, it didn't account for a short in the sensor), but the underlying problem was a short in the pot, which was kept well under wraps by Toyota and the people I'm guessing they paid off. I suspect the TGP was manufactured in China, which the Japanese seem to always bury as well (like Sony with their lithium batteries - they make it look like they are all made in Japan, which is BS)

The military REFUSES to use anything but tin/lead and have an exemption.As does tin/lead used IN electronic components.

Anything coming from academia is for "look at me" and is very rarely practical because they don't contemplate the real world. Silver ink on paper is useless for anything but greeting cards,IMO
Logged
Old_but_Alive
V.I.P
Active Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 211

Thank You
-Given: 154
-Receive: 56


« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2013, 01:23:41 13:23 »

well, I have just learned a lot.

many thanks, grovel grovel grovel
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
Print
Jump to:  


DISCLAIMER
WE DONT HOST ANY ILLEGAL FILES ON THE SERVER
USE CONTACT US TO REPORT ILLEGAL FILES
ADMINISTRATORS CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR USERS POSTS AND LINKS

... Copyright 2003-2999 Sonsivri.to ...
Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC | HarzeM Dilber MC